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christophe
Starting Member

France
18 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2019 :  13:56:03 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Hello there,
I just brought back to France a 1979 Saab 96 I found in Belgium. I had to deal with some minor engine issues that prompted me to take the cylinder heads off. Upon examination, it appears my engine is not original to the car. These later models are supposed to have the 1,5L engine with a double choke Solex carburetor. My engine is a 1,7L version (with a 1mm overbore) equipped with the little Fomoco carb. Besides, one of the cylinder head dates back to 1977, the other one was cast in 1980 and my inlet manifold is a 1976 model!
While searching on this Forum, I came across some information about reconditioned engines with an additional serial number (or date code?) stamped near the original one. Id like to ascertain the model year of my engine block and thought someone here could shed some light on all this. The original serial number is TJ 12350. The extra stampings are MX B and 6M10.
On the other hand, it would be very interesting too if somebody could indicate me where the date code of the cylinder block is to be found.
I took the liberty to post this here as Saab 96 are pretty scarce cars in France, and the info about them too.
Nice day to all.
Christophe

melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
2851 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2019 :  15:14:05 Show Profile Visit melle's Homepage Reply with Quote
Welcome to the forum! Engine code MX= 1.7 low compression, the serial number suggests the engine started life in a Ford. Usually engine parts are not date stamped, with the exception of intake manifolds and some blocks. Would be interesting to see the date marks on the heads, can you perhaps post some pics?

Also see here: http://www.saab-v4.co.uk/speedball/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34295&SearchTerms=casting

www.saabv4.com
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christophe
Starting Member

France
18 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2019 :  00:17:20 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Thanks for the welcome and the quick reply.
Your links have already proven very useful! By using the date code of the "monkey's banana" as a comparison, I think I've been able to crack it. The first digit gives the day of the week (1 = Monday and so on). The letter indicates the year. This starts in 1968 with the letter A. As usual, the letter I is omitted. The letter M corresponds to 1979. The last two digits are used to indicate the number of the week of the corresponding year. Then, my engine would have been built the sixth day of the tenth week of 1979. Of course, this hypothesis is only based onto two date codes, so it would be interesting to test it with other occurrences.
About the pictures, as the cylinder heads are back on the car, I can no longer take a picture of the date codes as they are hidden under the oil deflecting plate.I'll look into the pictures I took previously. This might appear somewhere.
I also found that the Saab 96 V4 and myself share the same date of birth (2 Aug 1966), which is a nice coincidence isn't it?
Good night to all.
Christophe.
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
2851 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2019 :  14:14:33 Show Profile Visit melle's Homepage Reply with Quote
Interesting stuff Christophe!

quote:
Originally posted by christophe
The first digit gives the day of the week (1 = Monday and so on). The letter indicates the year. This starts in 1968 with the letter A. As usual, the letter I is omitted. The letter M corresponds to 1979. The last two digits are used to indicate the number of the week of the corresponding year.
Where did you find this info? Ford started producing the V4 in '65. I seem to recall I have a Ford document on engine markings/ numbers somewhere, will have a root through my archive when I have time.

I have plenty engines and heads, but generally no idea of their origin. Find a few more examples in my engine sales thread, note that one doesn't seem to have the date code (or it's obscured by grime): http://www.saab-v4.co.uk/speedball/topic.asp?topic_id=44868

www.saabv4.com
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christophe
Starting Member

France
18 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2019 :  14:47:12 Show Profile Reply with Quote
You're welcome, Melle.
Well, this is just a theory so far. In fact, I had this idea by mixing codes used by SIMCA and STUDEBAKER. Yes, I have some other cars you know My assumption is that an engine can't bear two serial numbers. So, Ford couldn't use one of of its own and used the date code instead. I made a little spreadsheet out of this and would be glad to test other codes, if you find any.

engine number date code assembly date date of registration
LD 45671 1C2 05/01/1970 ?
PT 65589 4C29 16/07/1970 17/02/1971
MK 90569 2F3 16/01/1973 ?
TJ 12350 6M10 10/03/1979 13/06/1979
TM 13633 ? ?
TM 13633 ? ?
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
2851 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2019 :  15:59:15 Show Profile Visit melle's Homepage Reply with Quote
All of the above engine numbers are from Fords, Saab engine numbers consist of 6 digits (all numbers), with an "S" added for Sonett engines (1.7LC).

Below are the numbers from what I believe is my 96's original engine. The engine number is 129662, the supposed date code is "9F27" and it looks like the casting date is "14 69". The car was first registered January 1970.




www.saabv4.com
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christophe
Starting Member

France
18 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2019 :  10:47:08 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Thanks for this new example. This one really talks. Obviously, I had the winners of the Derby, but in the wrong order! The first digit corresponds to the year (9 = 1969). The second one gives the month (F = June), and the last two ones are simply the day. In your case, 9F27 gives 27 June 1969. This is coherent with a registration in January 1970, as the car had to be built and shipped to England afterwards. Id say that the foundry casting indicates the 14th week of 1969 (the first week of April).
This gives a completely new reading of my own code, which now means 10 December 1976. All of a sudden, this becomes even more coherent with the 1977 cylinder head, the inlet manifold dated 15/11/76 and the fact that my distributor is a 1976 model and my carb a 1977 one.
Furthermore, I took a plunge into some documentation I had not read for decades that gave some information about the Ford serial numbers. In fact, Ford used the very same serial number for the engine and the car. The first digit gives the year and the second gives the month. The first digit was attributed sequentially (Yes, T corresponds to a 1977 car) but the second one was attributed randomly. I found some of these codes, but only for the last months of the year. Ill try to post them this afternoon.
Therefore, Im quite confident that my engine is a 65 DIN HP version coming from an early 1977 Ford Transit. At this time, base Ford Granadas still had the 1,7l V4 engine, but a 75 DIN HP version with a two-barrel carb.
Thanks again for your help.
Christophe

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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
2851 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2019 :  11:32:33 Show Profile Visit melle's Homepage Reply with Quote
If you're not a detective you should become one, brilliant stuff! I'm going to my workshop in the Netherlands where I have quite a few engines, will try and photograph all their numbers, just for fun. We're sad nerds, aren't we?

www.saabv4.com
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christophe
Starting Member

France
18 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2019 :  13:09:52 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Apart from the sleuth work that I like a LOT, I am also motivated by avoiding any mistakes. These engines did not had a lot of modifications but trying to do the right job in conjunction with the wrong shop manual might prove trying. Well, now, I have to find a Ford Transit shop manual
My engine just waits for its carb to be fired up again. Hopefully, this will happen during this Week-end.
Here are the codes I found. Of course, I'll try to find the missing ones.

Year (letter) Aug Sept Oct Nov Dec
1968 (H) HL HY HS HT
1969 (J) JC JK JD JE
1970 (k) KB KR KA KG
1971 (L) LJ LU LM LP
1972 (M) ML MY MS MT
1973 (N) NC NK ND NE
1974 (P) PB PR PA PG
1975 (R) RJ RU RM RP
1976 (S) SE SL SY SS ST
1977 (T)

Happy weekend to everyone, especially to the nerds!
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
2851 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2019 :  15:17:43 Show Profile Visit melle's Homepage Reply with Quote
Why would you need a Transit manual? Download the Saab factory manual from my website (http://www.saabv4.com/index.php/saab-factory-manuals/saab-v4-factory-workshop-manual-english/) and you should be golden.

There were several differences between Saab and Ford engines, but as far as they're applicable to your engine they've all been ironed out already, or the engine wouldn't fit your car. The most obvious that spring to mind are a "reversed" sump and shorter oil pick up pipe on some models, spigot needle bearing instead off oilite bush, flywheel/ clutch assy, engine mounts and air filter housing on some models. I've written an article on converting Ford engines for Saabs in Dutch years ago and I still mean to translate it to English and upload it to my website.

www.saabv4.com
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christophe
Starting Member

France
18 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2019 :  15:49:29 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Thank you, Melle. I've already downloaded this one and it's been a great help as it deals with later models. There seem to be slight differences between the Saab and the Transit in regard of the carb and the distributor. This might be overkill but I really like to know what parts I have on my car. Besides, the Transit has not a lot a followers in France and the manual won't cost more than a few euros.
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
2851 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2019 :  15:56:20 Show Profile Visit melle's Homepage Reply with Quote
If you find one and you're willing to scan it, I'd be interested in having it on my site.

www.saabv4.com
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christophe
Starting Member

France
18 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2019 :  16:39:37 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Of course, no problem.
I'll let you know what I find. Apparently, one these two could do the trick.

Edited by - christophe on 30 Aug 2019 16:41:18
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
2851 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2019 :  17:01:33 Show Profile Visit melle's Homepage Reply with Quote
Bonjour, I have this one, which has a pretty good section on the engine (my French is quite poor though!):



Happy to scan the relevant parts if any use. For my website I'm mainly interested in factory manuals.

www.saabv4.com
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christophe
Starting Member

France
18 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2019 :  22:50:36 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Thank you for your offer. I already have the French version of the Saab shop manual and the Haynes manual. I might also have this one already. I have to check this.
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
2851 Posts

Posted - 30 Aug 2019 :  23:12:37 Show Profile Visit melle's Homepage Reply with Quote
French version of the official workshop manual would be great for my site, but I appreciate it's a lot of work to scan if you don't have an auto feed scanner.

www.saabv4.com
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