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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
3343 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2020 :  18:14:04 Show Profile Reply with Quote
I've wanted to build a fuel injected V4 for years, and I've started a K-Jetronic (Bosch mechanical injection) conversion project a long time ago that's still not finished. I've collected all the parts I need, done the basic design work and built an engine test bench, but living far away from my workshop and having a few other projects going doesn't exactly help progress. In other words, I'm nearly done, bar the actual build.

Because my flight to NL got cancelled due to corona just before Easter and I was running out of projects I could work on in Bath, I decided it was time for another injection project. I've learned a lot about engine timing in the past five or so years; it's a fascinating subject that led to the desire to build an engine with a fully programmable motor management system, like Megasquirt.

Although I can do a lot of work on developing an EFI (electronic fuel injection) engine at home, the engine will ultimately get built in the workshop again, so don't hold your breath for the end result.


I know a few people who've converted V4s to EFI, and each had their own approach. A chap from the US who used to frequent this forum a while ago has a nice build report from his EFI project on his website: https://whatonearthisasonett.wordpress.com/2019/01/01/product-spotlight-2-custom-v4-fuel-injection-system/ It's all done to a high standard and it looks great, but using all new parts and spending lots of cash is not exactly my style.

The Ford 2.8 and 2.9 V6 came with EFI, and I thought it would be cool if I could massage a V6 manifold and plenum to fit a V4. I acquired one of each and started comparing them to the V4 manifold using a printout from a manifold gasket template from my website (2.8 left in pic, 2.9 right).





The 2.8 originally came with K-Jet and was only sold with EFI one model year; the manifold is not really suitable to convert to fit the V4 because the cooling layout of the 2.3/2.8 engine is different, so I decided to use the 2.9 manifold. 2.9 manifolds are relatively easy to get and not very expensive, whereas the 2.8 manifold is rare as hens teeth and will hopefully pay for the rest of the project (I got it cheap!). Here's a side-by-side comparison between the 2.9 V6 and the V4 manifold. The V4 one looks tiny in comparison!




The V6 is 12cm longer than the V4, so that's the amount the manifold needs shortening too.




Because the cooling layout differs between the engines, I'll need to create a cooling channel, which looks to be fairly easy. Some of the webbing will be removed, holes created and a bottom plate welded in. I don't have a mill, but I've had good luck milling aluminium with a router and a jig made of some rails before; just take it slowly and use a decent quality bit or a carbide burr and plenty WD40 as a lubricant.





I did some quick Photoshops of the envisioned end result, looks pretty good to me (ignore the blue tape), V6 for comparison first.






I'm VERY tempted now to get the hacksaw out, but a sensible voice in my head tells me to wait until I'm back in the workshop and use proper/ power tools. I'm not saying it'll be easy, but I've convinced myself today it's doable. I don't have a TIG welder, nor do I have any experience with TIG and aluminium, but I have a mate who can melt it together for me. I'm going to line everything up the best I can with a jig (thick piece of straight material where I can clamp/ bolt the parts to), tack weld it with the MIG and have my mate fully weld it. If there's any warping I'll have the contact surfaces milled by a machine shop.


Slightly worried about the height, not sure if this will fit under the bonnet of a 95/96, the hinge bar may be in the way. I think I can remove 1cm from the bottom of the plenum and about 1cm from the top of the manifold too if needed; with lower engine mounts I think I can gain another 1-2cm. Lowering the engine mounts might be advantageous anyway as I plan to slightly raise the suspension of my 95. We'll see, I'll measure a carb + air cleaner at some point but not the biggest issue now.




As for the management side of things, I think I'm going to use Speeduino (https://speeduino.com), an open source system based on a Arduino microprocessor and very similar to Megasquirt (it uses Tuner Studio software too), but much cheaper. The ECU will control both fuel and spark, so the distributor will eventually go. The layout of the ignition will be a bit like Borstlap's Megajolt project, but without the EDIS module (although I think one can be integrated to create a limp-home mode in case the ECU dies): http://www.saab-v4.co.uk/speedball/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3795


Next step is to rebuild and test the injectors I have and decide on the ECU I'm going to use. As things look now, I'll be ordering a Speeduino DIY kit at some point and do all the soldering myself. Not something I'm very experienced with, so should be fun.

Just to be clear, I'm not aiming for maximum power or anything, I just want to build some nice engines and enjoy figuring everything out. I drive like a granny and I'm not one to build useless muscle anyway. I'll write about my K-Jet project another time.

www.saabv4.com

v4admin
Forum Admin

United Kingdom
467 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2020 :  20:19:33 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Good luck, a fun project
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RhysN
V4 Fanatic

United Kingdom
411 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2020 :  13:22:28 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Wow, and I struggle to get a V4 done!
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
3343 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2020 :  23:00:03 Show Profile Reply with Quote
I hardly started this Rhys, and I'm by no means sure it's going to work. We'll see!

www.saabv4.com
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Borstlap
V4 Fanatic

Norway
301 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2020 :  19:26:23 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Cost for the diy kit is a steal compared to Megasquirt, Megajolt and Nodiz. No smd components so easy to solder as well. One thing confuses me a bit. In the opening post you write that the manifold on the left is the rare 2.8 that you are not going to use, but then you use that one for comparison. Where is the mix up?

About the manifold itself, isn't it easier to follow the line of the manifold in the link, with welded on bungs for the injectors and an adjusted air intake? No need to use a two bbl manifold, convert a single bbl manifold in the same style they are converted for use with a single Weber DCNF, just that you make the entry for a big round throttle body instead of oblong for a carb. Less ground breaking than converting a V6 manifold of course but maybe more practical #128522;.

Alex
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
3343 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2020 :  21:51:52 Show Profile Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Borstlap
Cost for the diy kit is a steal compared to Megasquirt, Megajolt and Nodiz. No smd components so easy to solder as well.
Yes, the kits are very cheap. Reassuring what you say about soldering Alex, I don't have a lot of experience with soldering PCBs.

quote:
Originally posted by Borstlap
One thing confuses me a bit. In the opening post you write that the manifold on the left is the rare 2.8 that you are not going to use, but then you use that one for comparison. Where is the mix up?
You're sharp! It's an earlier pic from when I was exploring my options.

quote:
Originally posted by Borstlap
About the manifold itself, isn't it easier to follow the line of the manifold in the link, with welded on bungs for the injectors and an adjusted air intake?
Yes, much easier. That's the route I'll be going with the K-Jet engine, more detail later.


quote:
Originally posted by Borstlap
Less ground breaking than converting a V6 manifold of course but maybe more practical
As you guessed, practicality is not the main objective, I just want to see if I can make this work because I think it will look cool and because I think the plenum and slightly longer runners will benefit low rpm torque. I know a chap who just drilled 4 holes in a manifold and epoxied the injectors in; works absolutely fine, just not what I want.

www.saabv4.com
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Dirtbiker
V4 Mad

United Kingdom
867 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2020 :  22:25:56 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Hi Melle,
I will be following this with interest. I have an engine being rebuilt for the 96 and because my problem is lack of time I am planning of using the Webcon Retroject and probably will use whatever ECU my local rolling road is familiar with. I would also like to use a coilpack for ignition.
Regarding not being able to work on the project because you live away from the workshop is there anywhere in Bath (or maybe Bristol) where you can use shared facilities. In Plymouth we have a very well equipped woodworking workshop https://www.thealbionworkshop.com/, The Art College has the Fab Lab https://www.plymouthart.ac.uk/about/fablab-plymouth and not too far away we have this http://www.chequeredflagcafe.co.uk/workshop. And of course, I run a public access Bicycle Workshop! I know none of these are quite what you need but maybe there is something appropriate where you are? Obviously not relevant until the situation with the pandemic changes.
Also, the latest Project Binky has some good manifold modification - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mCmv0jrya4
Cheers
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
3343 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2020 :  22:59:28 Show Profile Reply with Quote
To be honest, I think Retroject is way too expensive for what you get (i.e., single point injection). I understand time is an issue, but I would rather use a Bosch/ Weber Monopoint throttle body from a Peugeot 205, Citroen AX or Ford Fiesta or similar on an adapter plate. The adapter should be easy enough to make from aluminium flat stock. You get a lot of Monopoint TB for your money on eBay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/202938843326

We have great workshops at work, but I'm not friendly enough with the technicians to be able to use them for hobby projects unfortunately. What I need is someone with a machine shop, and an engine block for reference/ to use as a welding jig. Don't know a place in or around Bath that can help, tips welcome.

www.saabv4.com
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
3343 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2020 :  13:30:56 Show Profile Reply with Quote
I just watched the Project Binky episode Gareth linked. It's the first one I managed to watch front to back (whilst eating lunch and answering emails...), I hate their scripted videos. The work they do is great though, some nice manifold modification action indeed!

Gareth, we'll both need a trigger wheel and VR sensor set-up. Ideally I'd have the flywheel indexed at some point, but I think a simple slotted disc on the balance shaft pulley like Alex uses is the simplest option for now. I have already drawn up 60-2 and 36-1 trigger wheels in CAD; not sure what type I'm going to use yet (Speeduino supports both), but I can have a few water jet cut if others need one as well. I still have to design a bracket for the sensor, but I need an engine to measure stuff. I could pop over after lockdown and we can join forces designing one? Not sure what sensor to use yet either, something cheap and generic has my preference.

By the way, thinking about it, I'm not sure single point injection will give you much advantage over a well tuned carb and basic electronic injection. If you go all the way with lambda control etc. you might as well use an injector per cylinder and a cheap generic throttle body? I read this book recently and found it quite informative (although a bit outdated, technology has moved on the past decade!): https://www.diyautotune.com/product/performance-fuel-injection-systems-hp-books/

www.saabv4.com

Edited by - melle on 12 May 2020 13:40:40
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Dirtbiker
V4 Mad

United Kingdom
867 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2020 :  14:51:44 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Hi,
I agree the Retroject is expensive and will not necessarily offer more performance than a carb. I have lots to learn about all this and I think you can probably explain a lot to me! Years ago a colleaugue had a Fiesta with single point injection. It managed to flood itself in the work car park and before he could phone the AA I pulled out the fuel pump fuse, turned it over for a bit then tried it again with the fuse back in and it fired right up - hero status!

Do you think the Monopoint will flow enough fuel - looks to be the equivalent of a single choke 34 carb?

I like the idea of fitting four individual injectors perhaps. Never worked on a modern car with injectors - how do they attach. Are they threaded or pushed in and held in place some other way? Not sure I like the epoxy idea although I'm sure it works.
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Dirtbiker
V4 Mad

United Kingdom
867 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2020 :  14:57:31 Show Profile Reply with Quote
I was planning a 36-1 trigger wheel on the balance shaft pulley. I was going to buy one from triggerwheels.com but if you have something bespoke drawn up that would be much better.

With a bit of forward planning and good behaviour I should be able to get a weekend day that I can allocate to garage jobs. So yes, it would be great to get you down for a day and mock a few things up - I have engines here we can play with!

I'll get hold of a copy of that book too.

I'm hoping to have my engine back for the 96 this Summer with a view to a major engine bay tidy up and refit over winter.

Cheers
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
3343 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2020 :  21:11:47 Show Profile Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dirtbiker
Do you think the Monopoint will flow enough fuel - looks to be the equivalent of a single choke 34 carb?
If they flow enough fuel for a comparable size engine in a Fiesta/ AX/ 205/ Escort etc. I guess they will be fine for a standard V4, you could even use a cheap single choke manifold. You can always fit an injector with a higher output. They must flow about 4 times as much fuel as individual injectors on a 4-pot engine anyway I would think. As said, I think single point injection is always a poor compromise, especially for a (lightly) souped-up engine.

quote:
Originally posted by Dirtbiker
I like the idea of fitting four individual injectors perhaps. Never worked on a modern car with injectors - how do they attach. Are they threaded or pushed in and held in place some other way? Not sure I like the epoxy idea although I'm sure it works.
The ones I use are Bosch EV1 injectors, which were very common in '80s/'90s cars. They push in and are sealed with an o-ring. On some cars they attach to the fuel rail with a clip, on some the fuel rail is mounted to the inlet which keeps them in place. They shouldn't need much to hold them in place, as long as there are no air leaks you should be good because in a naturally aspirated engine the manifold pressure is either atmospheric, or there is vacuum. Epoxy is fine, just not my style either; I like something that looks sort of stock.

I downloaded this from the internet years ago, can't remember where it came from. I plan on making something like this for my K-Jet build.




I think a 36-1 trigger wheel is OK for most set-ups, unless you want sequential injection (which you can't with a single point system anyway), which is a bit more complicated (cam sensor needed as well) and I doubt will provide any extra gains for an agricultural engine like our V4s.

www.saabv4.com
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Dirtbiker
V4 Mad

United Kingdom
867 Posts

Posted - 13 May 2020 :  22:35:39 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Ok, I'm pretty much swayed by the idea of four injectors as in the manifold pictured. That should be easy enough to have made (I have some TIG experience but mostly in steel and don't have a TIG Welder). What do you use for a throttle body?

Could you explain a bit more about sequential injection. Or more precisely how it works if you don't have sequential injection. Do the injectors all pulse at the same time and the multitude of sensors keep the afr correct for the required load?

Is a cam sensor fairly straightforward using the distributor?

And you need a 60-2 trigger wheel for sequential injection?
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
3343 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2020 :  10:15:52 Show Profile Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dirtbiker
(I have some TIG experience but mostly in steel and don't have a TIG Welder).
Same here...

quote:
Originally posted by Dirtbiker
What do you use for a throttle body?
On the K-Jet engine I use a Porsche 944 or a Golf GTI one, not sure yet, I have several different ones (pics this weekend if I can find them). On the EFI engine I'll use the V6 TB.

quote:
Originally posted by Dirtbiker
Could you explain a bit more about sequential injection. Or more precisely how it works if you don't have sequential injection. Do the injectors all pulse at the same time and the multitude of sensors keep the afr correct for the required load?
That's pretty much how it works. K-Jetronic and most older EFI systems have batch injection; carburettors are basically batch supply systems too. As I understand it, using sequential injection only makes sense to get the last few HP out of performance engines, or to improve emissions slightly. Not worth the bother I think. An alternative would be individual throttle bodies: http://www.saab-v4.co.uk/speedball/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3759 Perhaps stripped down bike carbs could be used as budget ITBs, with the injectors in the manifold or in the runners?

quote:
Originally posted by Dirtbiker
Is a cam sensor fairly straightforward using the distributor?
That's a possibility I reckon, but there is a fair bit of play in old dizzies, which may defeat the purpose as you want an accurate cam signal. I don't really see any other way of installing a cam sensor on a V4, but I've never really thought it through.

quote:
Originally posted by Dirtbiker
And you need a 60-2 trigger wheel for sequential injection?
I think so.

I've ordered a Speeduino v0.3.7 DIY kit from DIY-EFI. I also got a signal simulator; not sure I need one, but it looked handy to have when setting things up. I'm planning to take some time off next week and hopefully solder the ECU.

www.saabv4.com
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Borstlap
V4 Fanatic

Norway
301 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2020 :  17:37:32 Show Profile Reply with Quote
I am writing this while using my tablet so I can't copy links, but when you go to www.autosportlabs.org and look in the 'Powered by Megajolt' section you'll find a thread om the Sonett and one on the 96. I included pictures with measurements for the VR bracket and the trigger wheel, which might save you having tot invent the (trigger) wheel again. XP Racing in Sweden has a 60-2 trigger wheel that fits the flywheel, which is the best place to have it. Of course you can have the flywheel itself machined, but that may be a bit of a challenge.

Alex
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melle
V4 Guru

United Kingdom
3343 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2020 :  19:23:00 Show Profile Reply with Quote
I've seen your pics Alex, but I may want to reinvent the wheel and have bespoke brackets water jet cut. ;) I could still use some dimensions for reference to draw up a quick prototype as I don't have an engine handy here in Bath to measure things. The trigger wheel itself is nothing special and can be cut in the same batch out of 5mm sheet.

Why would having the flywheel machined be a challenge? It's easy enough to find/ mark TDC and then have 36-1 or 60-2 holes milled around the circumference using a rotary indexer on its side. I just looked at XP's trigger wheel, I doubt it'll fit standard flywheels. Easy enough to draw/ cut one that will fit the standard flywheel/ clutch combo though. Note that their flywheel has two closed notches instead of two missing teeth, not all ECUs can handle this.

Alex, did you us a standard Ford VR sensor like this one: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254270151703 ?

www.saabv4.com
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