| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dirtbiker | Posted - 29 Nov 2021 : 21:50:03
Thought it easier to start a new thread here.
I plan on having a flywheel machined with a trigger like Antik has done here http://www.saab-v4.co.uk/speedball/topic.asp?topic_id=49169&whichpage=4
I have this flywheel and VW clutch bought from a nice chap on here
I don't think there is enough meat left to machine the trigger due to it having been lightened. There might be though. I plan to go and see a guy I know with CNC kit who does lots of work in this area and see what he thinks.
Here is a pic next to a standard flywheel
I think the only difference for the VW clutch is the holes drilled for mounting. I haven't measured the depth but at a glance looks standard.
So, the plan is probably to have a standard flywheel machined with the trigger plus have the additional holes drilled for the VW clutch.
Anyone (Antik or Melle?) happy to share a CAD file of the trigger pattern?
Melle, no problem to get an extra machined - might need to a donor flywheel but if I do have a spare then its yours, I will need to do a post house move rummage!
Cheers |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| melle | Posted - 17 Sep 2023 : 15:33:39
quote:
Originally posted by Dirtbiker
I suspect they last as long as a clutch.
The Borg & Beck slave in my '88 900 gave up the ghost after just 12k miles the other day, the original one before it lasted more than 10 times that... That said, a concentric slave will give far superior clutch action compared to the standard V4 set up.
www.saabv4.com |
| Dirtbiker | Posted - 16 Sep 2023 : 20:04:21
I’m now erring towards having a top hat bush maxes for the TYP 200 pressure plate.
Do with think stainless steel is appropriate, I think as the release bearing does the spinning the bush shouldn’t wear or do I need a harder steel.
Also thinking of drawing and having cut a trigger wheel that will act as a spacer like the one in the link on page 1. I would just buy one but out of stock.
Cheers |
| Dirtbiker | Posted - 16 Sep 2023 : 19:59:20
Derek,
I agree, seems a massive faff to separate the engine and box to change a slave cylinder but I suspect they last as long as a clutch.
Just had a full clutch and dual mass flywheel in one of our work vans (Transit with less than a 100k) and slave was fine but replaced as a matter of course. |
| Derek | Posted - 14 Sep 2023 : 13:09:11
I've always looked on these internal slaves as an unnecessary backward step. Failure means a total strip down, gearbox off. Who needs that when you can change the standard outside one very quickly and easily. |
| Dirtbiker | Posted - 13 Sep 2023 : 22:19:15
Hi All,
Revisiting this with the intention of getting the rebuilt engine fitted to the 96 this winter.
The main stumbling block I have is a lack of knowledge around which release bearing to use if I use the TYP M 200 pressure plate I have.
Looking at alternatives I figure it may be cost effective to buy the Scandix kit at 289 Euros.
Has anyone bought one of these kits? In the image on their website the diaphragm is shown without a centre ring (like my TYP M 200) and I wonder if the release bearing supplied with this kit may work with my clutch...? However I can't find the release bearing listed separately on the Scandix website...
I also wonder what pressure it is rated to as I worry that I may get slipping issues like Antiik did.
Thoughts appreciated before I commit to ordering the kit.
Thanks |
| AnttiK | Posted - 19 Aug 2022 : 08:24:05
Have not tried, but I have that kind of modification in my mind for next development step for clutch. I think pressure bearing lever could be modified to install that kind of slave cylinder to it.
I think there might be not enough space for 900 slave cylinder, which is in your picture, but probably there are smaller cylinders available. |
| melle | Posted - 19 Aug 2022 : 07:53:52
That's great news from Skandix (assuming it's any good!), much cheaper than comparable alternatives.
Has anyone ever tried fitting a coaxial slave cylinder (e.g., from a 900) instead of the standard slave, fork and release bearing?
www.saabv4.com |
| AnttiK | Posted - 19 Aug 2022 : 06:57:32
quote:
Originally posted by AnttiK
Yes the VW clutch is from Air-cooled engine.
I received VW diaphragm pressure plate and tested it with 4mm washers and I think this is quite close to where it should be. Then I compared the center ring depth to crankshaft installation surface with original clutch pressure plate. Center ring gets about 4mm closer to release bearing with VW pressure plate, so I think this could work.
I installed the LuK manufactured standard pressure plate using 3mm shims between flywheel and pressure plate. 3mm shims instead of 4mm, because my stock V4 clutch disc is 7.4mm thick instead of beetle standard 8.4mm thick and to adjust release bearing closer to flywheel.
I think Diaphragm clutch is clearly better to drive and engaging the clutch is smoother. But VW standard pressure plate does not have enough spring force for my V4. It slips with 3rd and 4th gear. Paruzzi web pages say the VW standard clutch has 380-420kg spring force and reinforced versions have 550kg spring force. Dirtbiker pressure plate is Sachs M200 and according to web it is reinforced (550kg?) so it should work.
I ordered and have received IAP AC141100EC VW pressure plate, which has 771kg spring force and will installing it next week. It should not slip
Skandix has new custom diaphragm clutch kit for V4. It is direct fit to flywheel and it is cheaper than stock kit:
https://www.skandix.de/en/spare-parts/drive-train/clutch/clutch-kit/1083115/
https://www.skandix.de/en/news/modern-clutch-kit-for-saab-95-96-and-sonett-v4/2323/ |
| AnttiK | Posted - 10 Dec 2021 : 07:53:46
I have not decided yet if I am going to modify the trigger wheel linked in post #1 or this flywheel in the latest picture. Probably it would be practical to modify this flywheel, test it with another engine with clutch cover like Gareth did and install it when needed.
Yes, one possibility is to mill the flywheel depth from 16.7mm to 21mm. If there is still enough material left in flywheel after that, enough room between flywheel fastening bolts and friction disc springs and also pressure plate center ring - release bearing distance is adequate.
I suppose Malbrad has milled diaphragm pressure plate to solve this problem. At least friction surface looks like it has been been milled.
https://malbrad.co.uk/index.php/product/96-v4-diaphragm-comp-clutch-4x-padle-clutch-kit-3-piece-kit-direct-fit/
|
| Derek | Posted - 09 Dec 2021 : 13:37:31
Would you being machining that one to lighten it the same as the flywheel in post #1? If you are brave you could machine down the driven face to reduce the the amount you have to shim it. |
| AnttiK | Posted - 08 Dec 2021 : 10:48:13
Yes the VW clutch is from Air-cooled engine.
Here is an interesting article of the coil spring clutch vs. diaphragm clutch.
http://thecartech.com/subjects/design/Automotive_clutch.htm
Diaphragm spring force is closest to the maximum, when spring shape is almost flat.
I received VW diaphragm pressure plate and tested it with 4mm washers and I think this is quite close to where it should be. Then I compared the center ring depth to crankshaft installation surface with original clutch pressure plate. Center ring gets about 4mm closer to release bearing with VW pressure plate, so I think this could work.
Also my V4 Sachs clutch disc friction area has inner diameter of 134mm, which is more than in some stock clutch discs. But the VW pressure plate has the same 134mm so I am going to use the V4 clutch disc.
However the clutch pressure plate diameter has only about 2mm tolerance to flywheel center bore, so I think I will enlarge the center bore about 2-3mm to make sure the pressure plate does not contact in any circumstance. And threads for bolts has to be made to flywheel, but I think that's it.
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| Betsy67 | Posted - 03 Dec 2021 : 07:28:29
Following with great interest, as it's a direction I would like to follow with the clutch.
I take it the VW clutch you're 'playing' with is from the Air-cooled engine/box set up ?
Just to throw something else into the mixing pot. I have both Air-cooled and VW 1.9TD clutch diaphragms lying around in my garage. Unfortunately I'm not sure which one is sat helplessly in the Saab flywheel under the bench ! It does fit in there rather nicely. I have a feeling that it's the 1.9TD one as that's the last vehicle I changed the clutch on.
If you're playing around with the Air-cooled clutches - plenty of options for upgraded pressure plates. |
| AnttiK | Posted - 02 Dec 2021 : 16:43:32
quote:
Originally posted by Dirtbiker
I then bolted TYP M 200 and its flywheel to an engine to see what it looks like
In this picture it looks like the center of the diaphragm springs gets too deep and there is not much room for pressing the center deeper to release the clutch. So you have to install the shims (or trigger wheel  ). When looking at the VW bug clutch installation videos from youtube it looks like diaphragm spring shape is more like convex than concave, when pressure plate is installed.
I think it is quite simple. We need to know VW 200mm flywheel depth from friction surface to clutch pressure plate installation level. According to some sources it is 21.0-21.2mm. And what is the standard VW 200mm clutch friction plate thickness? If it is 8.4mm (V4 clutch friction plate) then 21.1 - 16.7mm (0.660") = 4.4mm additional shim is needed. |
| Iain G | Posted - 02 Dec 2021 : 15:28:24
This link is most useful advice for setting-up clutch. Applies to both spring and diaphragm types in my experience.....
http://saabjournal.blogspot.com/2014/01/saab-v4-flywheelpressure-plate.html
A critical dimension of 0.660" from the pressure surface to the pressure plate mounting surface must be maintained. If this distance is NOT maintained, the aft surface of the release plate [the hexagonal flat plate in the center of the pressure plate [see photo, below] will not be in the correct fore/aft position. That surface must be 0.125" to 0.140" aft of the three flat pressure plate surfaces [the ones with two big holes, each--see photo below]. If not, the clutch will NOT release, and the release bearing arms will strike the surface of those same three flat pressure plate surfaces. NOT good.
Iain G |
| melle | Posted - 02 Dec 2021 : 09:41:28
quote:
Originally posted by Dirtbiker
Anyway, what would be nice is if I could use one of the trigger wheel plates between the clutch and the flywheel then I would not have to machine the flywheel for added depth.
I wasn't aware the friction surface needed machining to accept the VW pressure plate. If things become too tight in the bellhousing, and the flywheel has enough meat, I guess it would be possible to machine down both the friction surface and pressure plate mounting points to bring the whole assembly, including a separate trigger ring, further forward (sort of defeats the purpose of fitting a separate ring to avoid machining though...).
By the way: the trigger pattern between Antti's machined flywheel and the Classic Saab Racing ring is inverted (the first relies on the peaks, the other on the valleys), make sure your ECU can deal with this, not all will apparently.
By the way, VW parts are just so cheap, wow!
www.saabv4.com |
