| Author |  Topic  |
Dirtbiker
V4 Guru
United Kingdom
1083 Posts |  Posted - 29 Nov 2021 : 21:50:03  
| Thought it easier to start a new thread here.
I plan on having a flywheel machined with a trigger like Antik has done here http://www.saab-v4.co.uk/speedball/topic.asp?topic_id=49169&whichpage=4
I have this flywheel and VW clutch bought from a nice chap on here
I don't think there is enough meat left to machine the trigger due to it having been lightened. There might be though. I plan to go and see a guy I know with CNC kit who does lots of work in this area and see what he thinks.
Here is a pic next to a standard flywheel
I think the only difference for the VW clutch is the holes drilled for mounting. I haven't measured the depth but at a glance looks standard.
So, the plan is probably to have a standard flywheel machined with the trigger plus have the additional holes drilled for the VW clutch.
Anyone (Antik or Melle?) happy to share a CAD file of the trigger pattern?
Melle, no problem to get an extra machined - might need to a donor flywheel but if I do have a spare then its yours, I will need to do a post house move rummage!
Cheers |
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melle
V4 Guru
United Kingdom
4145 Posts | Posted - 29 Nov 2021 : 22:06:06
| Cool, I fancy the idea of a diaphragm conversion too. Antti has sent me his CAD file a while ago.
www.saabv4.com |  |
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AnttiK
V4 Fan
Finland
115 Posts | Posted - 30 Nov 2021 : 17:41:48
| At least in some VW diaphragm conversions to V4 I have seen that there must be about 4mm thick shim between the flywheel and pressure plate. If it is so in your diaphragm clutch there is a possibility to make separate trigger wheel ring to be attached to that. If your clutch does not need shim plates, then the flywheel can be milled to fit the separate trigger wheel.
For example you could buy/fabricate this kind of trigger wheel, which can be installed to V4 flywheel with VW diaphragm clutch:
https://www.classicsaabracing.com/en/trigger-wheel-v4
But I can send you the CAD file if you need it. (Or Melle?)
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Dirtbiker
V4 Guru
United Kingdom
1083 Posts | Posted - 30 Nov 2021 : 21:52:43
| Hi Antii,
Thanks for the info - very useful.
My clutch did not come with a spacer. The release bearing was missing but it was explained I would need an early type with a 'nose'. I think possibly if a spacer is fitted then a 'normal' later release bearing can be used?
My flywheel does not appear to have been machined other than lightening and additional holes. The distance from mounting to clutch face is 17mm.
Here are some photos
There is a lot of info on old threads on here regarding the diaphragm clutch topic. I really think I need to be able to turn the key and go with this engine so may put a standard clutch in to get some miles on it. I don't want to start it up then find I need to turn it off and pull it out again a few times as not good for running in I think.
I really like the idea of using this https://www.classicsaabracing.com/en/trigger-wheel-v4 as a spacer - could be a really nice easy solution.
If anyone fancies a going down a wormhole then this is a good place to start. Sadly lots of pictures are missing as expected with photobucket etc changing the way it operates.
Cheers and please add more info if you think it will help!
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AnttiK
V4 Fan
Finland
115 Posts | Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 06:15:31
| Do you mean early type pressure plate? If I have understood correctly early type pressure plate is needed for proper operation. There has to be a ring in center of the pressure plate springs. Otherwise some kind of extension spacer has to be made to standard release bearing and I have seen these kind of spacers might wear quite easily.
https://www.paruzzi.com/uk/volkswagen/engine/clutch-manual-and-saxomat/1508/
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melle
V4 Guru
United Kingdom
4145 Posts | Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 10:00:08
| I have a whole stack of Ford diaphragm clutches from V4 and V6 Granadas/ Taunuses/ Transits/ etc., amongst others "TYP M 215", "TYP MF 215" and TYP M 228" (I'm assuming the number is the friction diameter). I have the correct flywheels as well. I'm pretty sure Ford gearbox input shafts have a different spline, so the friction plates will be useless, but I still need to measure/ try the pressure plates to see if one of them might be usable in Saabs. I think all/ most of them will be too tall for the Saab bellhousing though, so that's probably why no one uses something that in principle bolts straight on. I currently have a 12M 1.5 low compression engine on my test bench, and I had to cut a chunk out of the Saab bellhousing that forms the rear engine mount to get the clutch to fit.
@Antti, I've sent your files to Gareth.
www.saabv4.com | |
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Dirtbiker
V4 Guru
United Kingdom
1083 Posts | Posted - 01 Dec 2021 : 21:49:20
| Antii - I understood him to mean early type release bearing but I have not seen one. I think he means this type of release bearing will work without the ring. Perhaps like this https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?products_id=20258166&vat_inc=true&gclid=Cj0KCQiA15yNBhDTARIsAGnwe0VILErB6PGRyAopP8scHqepqwUw9psc2qM0UK1hiQof6U9Uu5S2F68aAglkEALw_wcB
Well, even though there is lots of info out there I thought this evening I would have a look and measure myself.
I started by looking at a VW 1200 Beetle engine I have which I thought had a clutch on it but first had to turn it round to get to the back (Beetle, front..?) Anyway this one had a clutch with arms like the std SAAB ones rather than fingers
Might go back and unbolt that and see if TYP M 200 bolts straight on.
Next I thought I would compare the "height" from the flywheel of TYP M 200 to a standard SAAB clutch. TYP M 200 comes in at just under 30mm. Unfortunately I couldn't find a SAAB clutch and I am sure I had one in my hand a couple of weeks ago... Things are a little chaotic in the garage as I am building a larger workshop/store next to it but until that is done there is stuff all over the place. I have even been growing car parts in the greenhouse!
I also plan to weigh TYP M 200 and a standard clutch to compare.
I then bolted TYP M 200 and its flywheel to an engine to see what it looks like
Followed by a bellhousing
And there appears to be plenty of wriggle room in there
I think next I will try adding spacers between the pressure plate and the flywheel and see at what point clearance issues become problematic. I guess things to be aware of are that bellhousings might vary and inertia might been clearances reduce with revs. Maybe?
Anyway, what would be nice is if I could use one of the trigger wheel plates between the clutch and the flywheel then I would not have to machine the flywheel for added depth. Then would just need to sort release bearing...
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AnttiK
V4 Fan
Finland
115 Posts | Posted - 02 Dec 2021 : 06:24:54
| Here is link to video, which explains VW diaphragm clutch types:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wBaA2epBxk
Your clutch pressure plate is later model, which requires different type release bearing with different release bearing lever and metal pipe, which centers the release bearing. I consider this one option to modify the transmission to fit the later type release bearing. It is said that VW made this modification for improved reliability, because bearing is always centered.
The earlier type diaphragm clutch has a ring and the release bearing is the same Sachs part number, which is used in V4 Saab as well. I actually ordered pressure plate from Paruzzi yesterday and going to compare it with V4 standard pressure plate. But definitely not going to install it for the next summer drivings:) | |
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melle
V4 Guru
United Kingdom
4145 Posts | Posted - 02 Dec 2021 : 09:41:28
| quote:
Originally posted by Dirtbiker
Anyway, what would be nice is if I could use one of the trigger wheel plates between the clutch and the flywheel then I would not have to machine the flywheel for added depth.
I wasn't aware the friction surface needed machining to accept the VW pressure plate. If things become too tight in the bellhousing, and the flywheel has enough meat, I guess it would be possible to machine down both the friction surface and pressure plate mounting points to bring the whole assembly, including a separate trigger ring, further forward (sort of defeats the purpose of fitting a separate ring to avoid machining though...).
By the way: the trigger pattern between Antti's machined flywheel and the Classic Saab Racing ring is inverted (the first relies on the peaks, the other on the valleys), make sure your ECU can deal with this, not all will apparently.
By the way, VW parts are just so cheap, wow!
www.saabv4.com | |
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Iain G
V4 Fan
United Kingdom
161 Posts | Posted - 02 Dec 2021 : 15:28:24
| This link is most useful advice for setting-up clutch. Applies to both spring and diaphragm types in my experience.....
http://saabjournal.blogspot.com/2014/01/saab-v4-flywheelpressure-plate.html
A critical dimension of 0.660" from the pressure surface to the pressure plate mounting surface must be maintained. If this distance is NOT maintained, the aft surface of the release plate [the hexagonal flat plate in the center of the pressure plate [see photo, below] will not be in the correct fore/aft position. That surface must be 0.125" to 0.140" aft of the three flat pressure plate surfaces [the ones with two big holes, each--see photo below]. If not, the clutch will NOT release, and the release bearing arms will strike the surface of those same three flat pressure plate surfaces. NOT good.
Iain G | |
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AnttiK
V4 Fan
Finland
115 Posts | Posted - 02 Dec 2021 : 16:43:32
| quote:
Originally posted by Dirtbiker
I then bolted TYP M 200 and its flywheel to an engine to see what it looks like
In this picture it looks like the center of the diaphragm springs gets too deep and there is not much room for pressing the center deeper to release the clutch. So you have to install the shims (or trigger wheel  ). When looking at the VW bug clutch installation videos from youtube it looks like diaphragm spring shape is more like convex than concave, when pressure plate is installed.
I think it is quite simple. We need to know VW 200mm flywheel depth from friction surface to clutch pressure plate installation level. According to some sources it is 21.0-21.2mm. And what is the standard VW 200mm clutch friction plate thickness? If it is 8.4mm (V4 clutch friction plate) then 21.1 - 16.7mm (0.660") = 4.4mm additional shim is needed. | |
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Betsy67
V4 Fanatic
United Kingdom
409 Posts | Posted - 03 Dec 2021 : 07:28:29
| Following with great interest, as it's a direction I would like to follow with the clutch.
I take it the VW clutch you're 'playing' with is from the Air-cooled engine/box set up ?
Just to throw something else into the mixing pot. I have both Air-cooled and VW 1.9TD clutch diaphragms lying around in my garage. Unfortunately I'm not sure which one is sat helplessly in the Saab flywheel under the bench ! It does fit in there rather nicely. I have a feeling that it's the 1.9TD one as that's the last vehicle I changed the clutch on.
If you're playing around with the Air-cooled clutches - plenty of options for upgraded pressure plates. | |
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AnttiK
V4 Fan
Finland
115 Posts | Posted - 08 Dec 2021 : 10:48:13
| Yes the VW clutch is from Air-cooled engine.
Here is an interesting article of the coil spring clutch vs. diaphragm clutch.
http://thecartech.com/subjects/design/Automotive_clutch.htm
Diaphragm spring force is closest to the maximum, when spring shape is almost flat.
I received VW diaphragm pressure plate and tested it with 4mm washers and I think this is quite close to where it should be. Then I compared the center ring depth to crankshaft installation surface with original clutch pressure plate. Center ring gets about 4mm closer to release bearing with VW pressure plate, so I think this could work.
Also my V4 Sachs clutch disc friction area has inner diameter of 134mm, which is more than in some stock clutch discs. But the VW pressure plate has the same 134mm so I am going to use the V4 clutch disc.
However the clutch pressure plate diameter has only about 2mm tolerance to flywheel center bore, so I think I will enlarge the center bore about 2-3mm to make sure the pressure plate does not contact in any circumstance. And threads for bolts has to be made to flywheel, but I think that's it.
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Derek
V4 Guru
United Kingdom
2232 Posts | Posted - 09 Dec 2021 : 13:37:31
| | Would you being machining that one to lighten it the same as the flywheel in post #1? If you are brave you could machine down the driven face to reduce the the amount you have to shim it. | |
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AnttiK
V4 Fan
Finland
115 Posts | Posted - 10 Dec 2021 : 07:53:46
| I have not decided yet if I am going to modify the trigger wheel linked in post #1 or this flywheel in the latest picture. Probably it would be practical to modify this flywheel, test it with another engine with clutch cover like Gareth did and install it when needed.
Yes, one possibility is to mill the flywheel depth from 16.7mm to 21mm. If there is still enough material left in flywheel after that, enough room between flywheel fastening bolts and friction disc springs and also pressure plate center ring - release bearing distance is adequate.
I suppose Malbrad has milled diaphragm pressure plate to solve this problem. At least friction surface looks like it has been been milled.
https://malbrad.co.uk/index.php/product/96-v4-diaphragm-comp-clutch-4x-padle-clutch-kit-3-piece-kit-direct-fit/
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AnttiK
V4 Fan
Finland
115 Posts | Posted - 19 Aug 2022 : 06:57:32
| quote:
Originally posted by AnttiK
Yes the VW clutch is from Air-cooled engine.
I received VW diaphragm pressure plate and tested it with 4mm washers and I think this is quite close to where it should be. Then I compared the center ring depth to crankshaft installation surface with original clutch pressure plate. Center ring gets about 4mm closer to release bearing with VW pressure plate, so I think this could work.
I installed the LuK manufactured standard pressure plate using 3mm shims between flywheel and pressure plate. 3mm shims instead of 4mm, because my stock V4 clutch disc is 7.4mm thick instead of beetle standard 8.4mm thick and to adjust release bearing closer to flywheel.
I think Diaphragm clutch is clearly better to drive and engaging the clutch is smoother. But VW standard pressure plate does not have enough spring force for my V4. It slips with 3rd and 4th gear. Paruzzi web pages say the VW standard clutch has 380-420kg spring force and reinforced versions have 550kg spring force. Dirtbiker pressure plate is Sachs M200 and according to web it is reinforced (550kg?) so it should work.
I ordered and have received IAP AC141100EC VW pressure plate, which has 771kg spring force and will installing it next week. It should not slip
Skandix has new custom diaphragm clutch kit for V4. It is direct fit to flywheel and it is cheaper than stock kit:
https://www.skandix.de/en/spare-parts/drive-train/clutch/clutch-kit/1083115/
https://www.skandix.de/en/news/modern-clutch-kit-for-saab-95-96-and-sonett-v4/2323/ | |
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| Topic | |
EFI Flywheel
